Interesting fact:

Altius has a full brother (a gelding) who it seems has retired from racing.
Coubertin was also trained by Chris Waller for some time and then transferred to Con Karakatsanis.

Coubertin Career Stats
Earnings: $21,310
Starts: 17
Wins: 2
Seconds: 1
Thirds: 0

He won a Maiden at Seymour and an RB72 at Sale these were when trained by A J Vasil.
Chris Waller had no wins nor placings for the horse after training him for 5 starts.
Con Karakatsanis also trained him for a further 5 starts, for 0 wins, 0 placings.

He is (was) owned by the same owner/breeders.

So who was the bright spark who suggested gelding this beautifully bred horse :eek:

My understanding is with the snaffle ring bit, that by using these in different types of training it helps the horses mouth salivate, therefore settling the horse. A horse(especially a racehorse), doesnt need a dry mouth when he or she is in work and or in the middle of a campaign. By using the saffle ring bit this will entice the horse to be using its inner mouth/jaw/neck muscles to produce saliva aided by the snaffle. Im no trainer, but with your comments chrome, altius could do alot worse than what you say above. Surely for the owners, if it is good enough for hawk spur to be treated in such a fashion, then why not altius? From what i am seeing on the racetrack you would think the owners have a right to be seeking answers??http://www.propun.com.au/racing_for...ifons/icon9.gif

Beautifully bred - not wrong, by Redoutes out of circles of Gold........Please.

All placings were on a dead track, all other starts on fast, good, slow and heavy look like this 14s;0-0-0.

Diabolical to say the least!

Best TJ

I also think the snaffle ring bit gives greater control of the horse and aids the horse in not getting the tongue over the bit, as it tends to push up towards the roof of the mouth.

That sums it up best, TJ :D

http://youtu.be/CgcoCAwylW4?t=8m10s

Monty Roberts talks about stride and extending stride.

How handling a racehorse with care can produce fantastic results:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/D80miUV_FMs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Strider stable selections so far for Saturday:

Randwick R2 #7 PHOTON WILLIE
Randwick R4 #11 FOREVER LOVED
Randwick R8 #10 THAT'S A GOOD IDEA

Flemington Striders for Saturday added:

Flemington R2 #2 CAUTHEN
Flemington R3 #6 BONNE NUIT
Flemington R5 #17 GREGERS
Flemington R6 #8 PUISSANCE DE LUNE
Flemington R7 #3 REBEL DANE
Flemington R8 #7 OCTAVIA

Thanks for the updates Chrome. Have been meaning to ask you a question regards typical improvement in Mares - just not sure which thread to include it in so here goes (happy to move elsewhere if you prefer)

Am trying to ascertain what typically happens with progress/potential for mares i.e. as they progress from 4yo-5-6yo+

e.g. can a mare with a poor / average win record develop into an average/good/'strider'? prospect over this period and is this somewhat or substantially different for other types etc

Also - is there a peak age at which a Mare generally performs, after which it's improvement falls off?

Cheers LG

PS have done a bit of a search on here and elsewhere but not coming up with much by way of a guide, hence my query here.

Interesting question LG!
I am certainly of the opinion that a mare will never develop into a good strider unless she is trained to be a good strider. Most trainers do not go to the trouble of extra training, to improve stride. Basically most trainers will keep a horse healthy, fit and try to improve distance or speed. However, usually stride is something that most trainers don't have the know how to improve. It takes a tremendous amount of work to improve stride, and a good natural strider is always preferable.

A mare can improve out of sight depending on what's been holding her back.
Mares are notoriously moody and can get out of sorts for many reasons.
When a mare puts it all together on the day, she can improve dramatically.

If I give the example of mares that run favourite by age, this might shed some light:

All Mares Favourite
29.80% S/R

4yo Mares Favourite
30.31% S/R

5yo Mares Favourite
28.85% S/R

6yo Mares Favourite
28.09% S/R

7yo Mares Favourite
26.15% S/R

>7yo Mares Favourite
28.30% S/R

I'd say it depends on the mare, but overall they do tend to train off with age, it also depends on what age they started their race career.

As it stands, with current training methods and the cost of time, it is highly unlikely that a mare will increase it's stride length, unless she has had an injury stopping her stride out.

As per usual, very detailed answer.. thanks mate.

It would seem that good Mares peak around the 4yo mark then start to slowly taper off. If they are not good striding types from the outset, they are unlikely to become so later on in their career. Also that on any given day, a mare can outperform in comparison to its previous track record - sometimes remarkably so i.e. perform to a much higher rating which could be many lengths difference between expected/average run and it's actual performance on the day. Hard to pick when this might happen from what I gather. Perhaps one indicator might be the quality of the trainer as per his track record (with mares?) i.e. how well he places/prepares her, especially if there is some indication that she is ready to outperform. And also regards the rider on top??

A mare can improve out of sight depending on what's been holding her back.

Do you have any feel for whether this is more likely to occur;
1. at the start/middle/end of a campaign
2. with specific gear changes (or lack of)
3. with mares, as opposed to other types.

Apologies for the extra Qs here but your take and stats on this matter seem to concur with my observations so i am keen to peel back a few more layers, if possible!

Cheers LG

Sorry I can't give a definitive answer here LG, because it depends on so many variables. I think it can occur at any time during the campaign and that is why so many mares are unpredictable. Of course, blinkers shadow rolls, w inkers and the like can improve mares considerably, depending in her disposition at the time.

Here's some more food for thought though....

Of 2,163 winners over $50.00
71 were colts
299 were fillies
1,272 were geldings
49 were entires
472 were mares

So are geldings full of more surprises than mares?

Not so, there are significantly more of them running around.
There were only 69,395 of them running around at odds of 50/1 or better
versus 170,284 geldings, so more than double!

But as you say, there are more layers to this than a Sara-Lee cake ;)

Point taken Chrome, thanks for your input on this.

LG

Some very interesting comments by Chris Waller this week.
As I've noted, his training style is to set them to run off the pace and come home late. As Canterbury is a leaders track, all his runners yesterday had no hope. Not only were there no winners, there were no placings at all.
This is something to note for future when it comes to leader tracks in general.

Chris says that the track was particularly biased yesterday and this sort of bias only occurs around four times per year. In my opinion the stats tell a different story and it seems he is grasping at excuses again.

I have great respect for Chris as a trainer, but I think these things should be pointed out to put things into perspective. He has handled Altius in a very poor manner in my opinion, and his excuses just don't hold water when things don't go as planned.

He certainly isn't the Lone Ranger though. :(

Seriously - Canterbury approx 4 times a year a biased leaders track?????? Im no ************, but what i can 100% say, is that canterbury is a leaders track all year round every year every week. Results have told us that for years.

Best TJ.

There you go TJ, I thought his statement was laughable to say the least.

He has had some winners there when he decides to train them that way, but he's justifying his poor results yesterday with some perceived magical bias that only manifests itself 4 times a year.
The track was a Good 3 all day, so it wasn't like there was anything unique.

He's a fantastic trainer no doubt, but he's really letting himself down lately with these antics.

Yep no question about his training abilities, possible that he expects success most of the time regardless of any track he takes them too which would leave some owners scratching, due to the way he likes to train them sitting midfield/off the pace/out the back etc if they are running at those tight turning tracks, which in turn leaves his horses vulnerable.

Subject horse Kinz Funky Monkey finished 8th on 1st September in an Optional Claimer at Del Mar. It was a 6 furlong race (1200M) and she struggled from the home turn, was a little wide, but faded badly in the straight.

Possible explanation is that this race was held on the Del Mar All Weather track and not the Turf track. However, I'm inclined to think there is more to this story than meets the eye.

Her form is now 321138 and after running in Stakes races they put her in an optional claimer. The question begs, is she injured? She has always made ground late, that's her trademark, and she faded in the straight to run last in a lower class race.

There were also two Stakes races on the program, so that says a lot that they opted for the Claimer.

Will be keeping an eye out to see her progress back on the turf track.

Randwick R2 #7 PHOTON WILLIE 2nd ($16,750 prizemoney)
Randwick R4 #11 FOREVER LOVED unplaced
Randwick R8 #10 THAT'S A GOOD IDEA WON $2.79 (BFSP Net) ($48,750 prizemoney)

Flemington R2 #2 CAUTHEN unplaced
Flemington R3 #6 BONNE NUIT unplaced
Flemington R5 #17 GREGERS unplaced
Flemington R6 #8 PUISSANCE DE LUNE 2nd ($63,000 prizemoney)
Flemington R7 #3 REBEL DANE unplaced
Flemington R8 #7 OCTAVIA unplaced

So far the "stable" has had 21 starts for 5 winners, 4 seconds, 2 thirds and earned $429,300 in prizemoney.
Betting action is minus 5.74 units. 27.33% LOT

No wonder breeders and trainers are raking in the bucks and the punters are left hollow :(

Noticed that Hawkspur referred to earlier in this thread won today at odds of BFSP $6.81 (Net) after Danielle from Waller's stable took him to dressage training last week.
Very few punters would have been aware of this little extra training.

This does not sit well with me Chrome - However, that said, if one cannot beat the establishment then we either accept the loss gracefully and / OR swap sides. If you can't beat the bank, be the bank (or play the same hand)?

LG

I am about to become the bank LG. :D
It's still fairly early days of course, and I'm confident better things are around the corner as far betting returns go, but I'm in the process of seeking funding for a thoroughbred breeding enterprise. As such I'd become an owner breeder, as I think I have what it takes not to waste time on non performers and recognise talent when I see it, even in training and stride.
I feel there are far greater returns available with minimal risk on the dark side.

Best of luck with that Chrome.

If I had still had a fraction of the dosh I made on the last big stock market bubble I would offer my hat in the ring.

LG

Thanks LG, appreciate the best wishes.
Certainly I wish I could just go out and purchase the land, but one needs good soil with drainage but dams and reasonably flat areas for training. The amount of land needs to be an absolute minimum of 20 acres and to find this within a reasonable distance of the city is near impossible for the money I am looking at :(

I'm in talks with a number of people and non profit organisations, because I intend to use part of the land for racehorse rescue and retirement. Having visited the abbatoirs and seen the way they are treated, makes my stomach turn. You can't save them all, but if I can even save a few, it will be very rewarding, especially if I can find good homes for them.

I'm also going to rescue factory farm animal such as chickens and pigs, and grow my own produce to feed the animals, so they will be free to roam the pastures as nature intended and not be locked up in solitary confinement or worse overcrowded dark conditions.

I think I'll get more enjoyment out of this side of the farm, than the excitment of breeding, pretraining and owning a winner or two.

Surpass has accepted for R8 Mornington on Wednesday.

Thought I'd share this, as there is a bit of an insight into David Hayes' operation in Euroa.

Surpass R8 Mornington WON $3.85 ($21,000 prizemoney)

So far the "stable" has had 22 starts for 6 winners, 4 seconds, 2 thirds and earned $450,300 in prizemoney.
Betting action is minus 2.89 units. 13.14% LOT

Stable Striders for Saturday:

ROSEHILL
R5 #1 RAIN AFFAIR
R8 #6 HONORIUS

MOONEE VALLEY
R4 #1 ATLANTIC JEWEL
R4 #5 BONNE NUIT
R8 #7 ELITE ELLE

Nothing to report from the stable of Chris Waller other than his obvious recent success. Noticed he's really toned it down this week though ;)

Been doing a lot of research recently regarding horse welfare. It seems there are some startling goings on within the industry that concern me greatly, as I am an avid racing enthusiast, but not at the expense of the animal.

No, I'm not one of those rogue protesters, nor am I going to agree 100% with anyone either side of the fence, I'll just state the facts I've found that are a matter of public record.

These prestigious bloodstock sales are full of a dirty secret.
Many of the larger auction establishments are purchasing the supplementary animals that don't achieve a certain figure, and selling them to the knackery for profit.

I have investigated this issue thoroughly, and have evidence of names of those that do it, and the horses involved. (Not to be mentioned here)

I went through the catalogues at the sales and looked for the cheapies, I then researched each and every horse purchased in house that had a racing name.

Then I went a step further and investigated the lot numbers at one knackery which shall remain nameless.

This concerns me greatly, because there are horses that need to be put down, but the treatment prior and the manner in which they are killed is simply sickening.

The big auction houses which are a part of this should be ashamed of themselves.

Looking up horses, I have found that horses killed at the knackery are hidden from public view, RISA are not even informed that the horse "died", many of them are simply listed as spelling :(

The second issue is the stance of a so called animal welfare agency.
They are criticising horseracing, whip use, jumps racing etc etc.
But both the Victorian and NSW divisions have supported the culling (too ashamed to say killing) of Australia's wild brumbys.

At first thought one might imagine that perhaps for the welfare of the population, numbers need to be decreased. I don't agree with this, but can see the point.

However, the startling facts are these:

It is reported that many are starving to death in the wild, however, just about all video footage of these horses in the wild shows them almost obese!
There are of course some starving brumbies, but this is natural attrition due to their teeth being worn down and unable to feed properly. This happens with windsuckers if left untreated.

In the last brumby cull many were not killed instantly and carcasses were just left to rot, which created all sorts of health risks for the remaining horses.
More than one brumby was found alive but injured days later, one brumby was finally found two weeks later still alive but wounded badly as repoted on ABC TV.

This is the solution to badly managed National Parks, to make the problem go away.

If someone shoots their own pet, they are charged with animal cruelty (if the animal isn't injured).
So how can this be legal?

Surely trapping the males and setting up a fenced area to control numbers is a more humane and effective longterm control. A fenced area could be less than 1% of a National Park and still be massive in size so as to not restrict freedom of movement and still supply enough food.

It costs $40 a head to kill 1,000 brumbies.
I think there are better ways of killing them for $40,000 than aerial shooting.

I don't know, it's all just inhumane and completely illogical to me.

On a more positive note, I have mentioned that long striding types have a superior edge, providing they have the speed.
Sometimes we aren't able to judge the stride for many reasons.
The horse may not be extended when parading, you may not be able to see the stride in a race because the horse is a bit obscured by other horses, or you may not be able to pick it up with the naked eye.

There is another way to pick stride without having to look at the gait.

If the vertebrae of the withers are long (front to back), the shoulder is more free to move backwards. This allows for an increase of stride length (and so it can increase the horse's speed). It is also important in jumping, as the shoulder must rotate back for the horse to make his forearm more parallel to the ground, which will then raise the animal's knees upward and get the lower legs out of the way. Therefore, the withers have a direct impact on one of the most important points of conformation: the shoulder.

It is not necessarily the height of the withers, it is the length of the withers.

These are the horse's withers:



When going to look at suitable horses for dressage, eventing, jumping and even potential breeding or those suitable to race, I always look at the combination of withers and stride if I can.

Short withers are really bad, but ssometimes you can pick up a bargain if the horse has short withers, poor stride but has grand sire and dam with very good withers. This would be a case where I would purchase the horse for breeding at a fraction of the cost. Of course they may breed several short withered horses depending on the dominance of the gene.
Mixing various sires and dams can sometimes get a long withered horse, with good bloodlines and this is the cheapest way to get a very good horse.

If you look at all the champion sires, and racehorses, they usually have a combination of high and long withers, very prominent.

My horse Chrome Prince, which I owned a very long time ago, was a sprinter but had very short withers. He was a gelding and was not fast enough to make the grade, but did win a lot of picnic races because he had one burst of speed. He was well muscled and had a very good chest, but didn't have the stride or the withers.

Here are some pictures of some very good horses, note the actual wither definition. This is a key part of conformation.







Note the actual wither definition, the rise from the neck and the length, they all have this in common, and one could make informed decisions without seeing the stride at all. However, of course it's most preferable to see the combination of withers, stride and gait.

That would be too easy for another human outside the authorities to do, however imbercilic beauracrats get paid to complicate and come up with illogical decisions.

Best TJ

TJ,
Then there's the jumps racing total debarcle.
Idea: Lower the jumps and make them collapsible.
Consequence: Horses go over them faster, and trip over.

Surely the whole idea is to get the horse to slow down and navigate the jump properly, no speed up increasing the chance of a fall.
Anyone who has watch eventing or Olympic jumping, or English jmps racing knows that the slower a horse goes over a jump, the more likely it is to do it safely.
But the boffins have really brought jumps racing into disrepute now :(

Stable Striders Results
 

ROSEHILL
R5 #1 RAIN AFFAIR unplaced
R8 #6 HONORIUS 2nd ($25,000 prizemoney)

MOONEE VALLEY
R4 #1 ATLANTIC JEWEL WON $1.05 (BFSP Net) ($132,000 prizemoney).
R4 #5 BONNE NUIT unplaced
R8 #7 ELITE ELLE unplaced

So far the "stable" has had 27 starts for 7 winners, 5 seconds, 2 thirds and earned $607,300 in prizemoney.
Betting action is minus 6.84 units. 25.33% LOT

I can see that the prizemoney just keeps increasing steadily, and the betting loss does also, so on one hand, I'm stoked, on the other perplexed.

May be time to bin this one Chrome.

Cheers

Not on your life Darky :D

The horse I have picked out for the virtual stable have won $607,300 for the virtual owner based on stride assessment.
There is obviously something there, and I'm looking at stride / class refinements for the punting angle.

100%- But the buffoons, have money goggles on and are ******** bent on looking good for their employers, rather than looking out for the animal. The English jumps racing is classic example, and should be taken notice of by our shores!

I see surpass saluted midweek, although not as impressive as its previous win at sandown, However I put that down to the track, he looks like he relishes a nice long straight like sandown or possible Flemington!

Best TJ

I would like to see you keep it going CP

I follow this closely and personally see great potential in it as a factor to deciding on whether a horse is worth a wager.

I doubt it will ever be the over riding factor and by including every race in your betting turnover I think sells the practice short when so many other factors are in play.

Thanks NP, yes I'll be keeping it going at least for a while because I think it's way too early to make refinements.
A lot of these horses have had huge jumps in grade and only been narrowly beaten, hence the accumulation in prizemoney. My personal challenge has been to put my eye to the test rather than a punting perspective. Can I judge the stride and does that translate to career potential?
So far I think from that perspective, it's going fairly well.