Take screenshots of Betfair bet placement
 

I just placed a $5k liability SP Lay bet on Kilmore 2. The screen showed the bet had been placed, my account was debited $5k at the time of bet. The horse lost and no bet was recorded and liability refunded. If you place a SP Lay liability bet and you receive confirmation that the bet has been accepted, does that NOT mean it's been accepted? They claim the bet lapsed.

Currently have raised a dispute with them but wish I had taken a screenshot of the bet and will do so from now on. Over em!!

Read the fine print
 

Answered my own question. If the dividend assigned to a SP bet is 1.01 or 1000 then the bet will lapse. Considering there was $25k plus in the pool and my dividend payout at 1000 SP is $5, you'd think they'd pay?
No to that one. I would've been better off having a $1k bet.

Speaking off screenshots, with Betfair now not showing the Lay, SP price history after a race has been completed of the non place getters, how amongst other details does a Lay bettor find out what the SP and Lay prices were for a race in the instance that they want to dispute a dividend?

In this instance I did have a screenshot of the final prices at the Close, just not the bet. There is something fundamentally wrong with the lack of transparency with this latest upgrade/downgrade!.

You have to wait until the evening and then download the prices in csv format from http://www.betfairpromo.com/betfairsp/prices/
This gives all the prices for all runners.
Did you set a price cutoff and it was over the price, otherwise I can't think of why it would not have been matched.

https://promo.betfair.com/betfairsp/results.html
This also gives all the win and place Sp's for Aussie races, but cuts off late at night for UK prices.

Incredibly helpful. Thanks bud.

LG

Useful info CP, however the above website is only Gallops, no Trots. The other site is dated current day but results show previous day. So if I want to look up the SP prices for Kilmore R2, I'll have to wait till sometime today.

Still annoying to say the least, fortunately I've found away around it, not for publication?? I never had a limit on my SP bet but they say it had a SP price of 1000, therefore refer to fine print:

"Will there be unmatched SP bets if the money isn’t there?

In theory, there could be unmatched SP bets. We don’t actually guarantee a match. But this would only happen if the price is 1.01 or 1000 – the two extremes of our SP. If 1.01 were the final SP, then some backers might be unmatched. If 1000 were the final SP, then some layers will be unmatched. However, we expect this to be very rare"

Looks like I'm very rare....lol

Cheers for that CP. A hot night here, couldn't sleep so thought, might as well update the stats. Betfair's official response was:

"Please be advised that we can never guarantee a SP bet will be matched in the market"

Reassuring hey!

Past daily results for lay betting
 

Hi All
I have been pursuing with Betfair as to where I go to find results of lay betting immediately after a race.
Guess what?
I was told to go to a sight where they publish results which will be upgraded on a fortnightly basis. Very helpful?
Sounds like we are getting mixed information out of Betfair?
I have questioned with them, seeing they are not doing an immediate lay betting result as in the past, whether they are considering quitting lay betting. No answer yet despite 2 requests to answer my direct question.

Regards
Ted

I think you'll see them pushing fixed odds Backing and run the exchange into the ground! Start looking to diversify or consider using a bot to Dutch Back the field, leaving out your Lay selection. They're certainly on a campaign to upset as many Lay bettors as possible. I put it down to the rise and rise of the online bookies.

I certainly don't think they are cancelling lay betting. It wouldn't make sense.
People would leave in droves, as the prices would plunge for backing.
The fixed odds is supposed to be an attraction for those who don't understand the concept of the exchange to get them to the site and hopefully investigate further, those that don't, it's a free revenue stream that otherwise wouldn't exist.

I hope you're right CP as I make a living Laying and I'm not looking forward to Laying the price of Bitcoins, let me tell ya'...lol

However in this age of divides, what "wouldn't make sense" for one side of an argument, "makes perfect sense" for the other party. Just look at Holden, SPC Ardmona etc??

True enough RP :(
That will kill me and almost all my action if there is no decent lay market, dutch backing the field leaving one out, won't be the same, the market percentages will kill that.

Do you want me to send you some info on Bitcoin's then?? ....just asking...lol

How so?

Coz, when your a hands on Lay bettor not relying on Gruss or any Bot to do the thinking for you, you need to be able to look at the Betfair page (former), instead of multiple screens now, to assess the info you need, so you can react quickly and place a bet!

wow, if that was meant to impress, well lets just say it doesnt...

Sorry Stugots I had to race out, storm coming through. The point I was making by showing the bet slip, is that I'm not playing around with toy money here. I'm risking $8k to make $1k. If you're a heavy hitter big time bettor, then good luck to you, but to me it's not an insignificant amount. It's a serious financial business and I don't need some betfair employee with a degree in software development under his arm, probably never risked more than $5 on a Melbourne Cup bet, to decide that us punters need a change! If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
See the attachment, to try and demonstrate the downside of their new changes. Don't ask me how I'm still viewing the old format screen though??

That new Betfair results page is awful. How are you supposed to look at past results and work stuff out? Why would they change it? FFS!!!

The future of lay betting with BF
 

Hi
At last I received a reply to my question to BF regarding lay betting.

here it is lol

"No, Betfair has no intention of closing lay betting in the near future"

I have now questioned will it cease long term .. be the same reply I reckon.

I had also asked as to where do I find past results of lay prices. Despite a direct question they directed me to the results page which I understand does not contain lay prices. It did in the past.

Maybe the BF rep answering my query doesn't know?
I have now asked if Betfair does or doesn't publish lay prices. I bet they are getting sick of me..lol

Regards
Ted

how can and why would BF cancel lay betting. they are an exchange of opinions between bettors and layers.

They cancel layers and they cancel their business.

yes - i have had something familiar happen to me.
i thought it was just me.

That's now added to the reasons why i got so angry when p123 came on here made some excuse to introduce himself and then and said he was laying '000's of $ and never a mention of problems with being set.

In one race i think he said he layed 600+ when the whole market was only 2000 in total.

i have it is a big risk if you are laying ad wait and hope for SP - even on some metro markets

The trouble with their exchange business is they're only making 5-6.5% on half the turnover as opposed to having a 15% markup on 100% turnover if they just have a Fixed Price Tote. We all know that must be a successful business model as overseas bookies are trying to buy a share of the market.
A parallel might be CocaCola Amatil. They make 100's of millions in profit a year and own SPC Ardmona who allegedly lose millions each year. If they closed down, that'd upset a few people(aka Layers), but as a listed company with shareholders their charter is to make a profit at all costs.

I guess it's about economy of scale, Australia has a fairly small population of Exchange users compared with the UK, dunno? I hope not.

to state the obvious they are 2 different businesses.
the closest thing, unless i am mistaken, that BF get to risk exposure is their best tote product. everything else they are facilitators .

corporate bookmaking is a much different beast with fixed prices, price assessment etc.

Betfair are solely responsible for their own downturn in customers and revenue.
They were getting between 2% and 5% commission on ALL winning bets.
That is an extremely massive revenue stream when one considers the turnover on all the races they cover.
That also had no risk whatsoever, a massive money making machine.

However, since it was publicly listed, they could not report expected growth as punters come and go, a bit like sales, customers drop off, and customers join, one is constantly filling a funnel. There was no growth model at all.
So the boffins decided to hit it's very core customers who supply liquidity which is the lifeblood of any exchange.

Short sighted bean counters decided on a Premium Charge.
The growth graph looked hypothetically great in reporting statements to shareholders and the market.
This is business mistakes for dummies stuff. Hit your best customers where it hurts with no discount for loyalty or turnover.

And there has been more fallout than Chernobyl!

1) It was no longer viable to trade (in the traditional sense) on any market whatsoever.
2) The winning traders left for greener pastures at the expense of liquidity and profit - NEVER TO RETURN.
3) The markets lost more than half it's liquidity leaving punters unable to get set on anything greater than 10/1 for decent amounts.
4) Markets devoid of liquidity meant that the prices were only driven by punters, therefore as a market total virtually became 100% on average, with commission on top. Meat was sheared off the bone.
5) Thousands of punters left in droves.
6) Revenue and growth dropped massively and stagnated with no hope of redemption.

Good one Betfair!

However, this does not mean there is not value to be had.
But the bread and butter traders and recreational punters are the ones hit hard. There are ways around everything, but Betfair have killed their own share price and value.
The latest from the bean counters is to offer fixed odds, scoop up the overround and trade out on liability on the exchange to try and restore some liquidity.

Well, that ain't going to work.

Exchange users want an exchange.
Recreational punters (in the main) will use the bookies or tote.
Leaving only the smarties scooping odds anomalies, costing Betfair yet again.

There are none so blind as those who cannot see.
Or to be more precise, a degree should never take the place of knowledge.

i will have to buy some new glasses..
does BF offer fixed odds ?
i know you can fix in the exchange market but i havent noticed a fixed odds section?

where is it please ?

It's there for UK markets, and coming to Oz markets very shortly, got a call from Betfair this morning about it.

Beautifully put CP. How about leaking this summary to the press? It might spur someone on to write a story, maybe the ABC....hey??...lol

CP, do you mind if I put that one on the Betfair site (sighting yourself and this site or not)? Someone who may have a say might see something like that over there rather than here.

Feel free to post it TO, but no names preferred.

Post #27 is spot on CP.

I posted it on Betfair (see link - no names) and the first response had a go at it but then I didn't really explain the context of the fixed tote product coming in here. Mind you I posted it on the Aussie forum so you would think they would know.

Link below (I think you have to switch to standard view to see the complete response).
http://community.betfair.com/austra...lvWelcomeHeader

Guess what???
 

Hi All

Betfair (Tim Manson) have confirmed they have no intention of phasing out Lay betting ever.

and -
After at least 6 emails they inform me that LAY results and prices for any race meeting within Australia WILL NOT be available.

Regards
Ted

I think you might've misunderstood the last bit Ted. They could never Not publish results as that would contravene consumer law. They've just made it harder to find!

However, why don't you send your man Tim, CP's post and PS it with, "Well done Tim, to you and all the team, you've managed to achieve what every graduate from a' How to Run a Business into the Ground' course aspires to!"...lol

Read the responses.
I'll just reply here, as I don't like the BF forum much.

I am probably making more now than I did before, but it's harder and with Aus races I can't get set early on many horses, I have to wait until the last ten minutes. Before PC and levies, that was not the case.

1) It was no longer viable to trade (in the traditional sense) on any market whatsoever.

Nonsense.

Clearly this bloke is not a tick trader. Neither am I, I was just pointing out that tick traders have all but left because of the PC.

2) The winning traders left for greener pastures at the expense of liquidity and profit - NEVER TO RETURN.

Less sharks in the pool means the smaller fish have got a chance. Make the most of it.

Nope, that doesn't follow. Less fish in the pool means a smaller pool in this case and prices that would have been there aren't, because traders aren't trying to get on or get out.

3) The markets lost more than half it's liquidity leaving punters unable to get set on anything greater than 10/1 for decent amounts.

It all comes down to supply and demand. If it's long prices you're looking for you'll normally find that anything that's not in the first 3 or 4 in the market in most races will drift out to big odds just before the race. As for "decent amounts", that's a very vague concept. The less greedy you are about price, the more you'll get set for, just like any other betting medium.

I did not do any betting for the early part of yesterday, I watched the markets quite a bit though. The amount of money available at anything outside a few fancied runners even on metro races was dismal (with some exceptions). Greedy is a vague concept also.


4) Markets devoid of liquidity meant that the prices were only driven by punters, therefore as a market total virtually became 100% on average, with commission on top. Meat was sheared off the bone.

I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. Sorry.

He doesn't understand market percentages fully.

5) Thousands of punters left in droves.

Because all the whingers kept talking the place down.

No they left the forum for that reason, they left Betfair because of Premium Charges - fact.

6) Revenue and growth dropped massively and stagnated with no hope of redemption.

More doom and gloom. And isn't that more a problem for the share-holders and bean counters? Why should punters give a flying fig, as long as we can get a bet on.

Because it's getting harder and harder to get a bet on, that's the point.

I put your response up CP but all I got was some banal piece of crap. You're right about that forum and I too don't go there much at all - only when something happens like your original post that I put up there.

Betfair's forum actually used to be quite good years ago, plenty of interesting topics and contributions, but these days it's full of time wasters except for the occasional contributions.

Betfair Advantage Comparison Tool
 

Another casualty of the NEW Betfair results page is the Advantage Comparison Tool. It's their for all to see as in the final % AFTER the race, but not available BEFORE the race anymore. I found it a very useful tool, and for the life of me, I don't know why they pulled the plug on it displaying before the race start. Another genius move by the 'kid'!

The software was freely available back in 2007 and I know Chrome had used it, as I've read your old postings. It's no longer available for download now, it just reverts back to Betfair's results page. The only trouble with the tool prior to the race start was it was taking the average of totes and comparing it with the Betfair Back price, so it was pretty unstable as an indicator. What you saw on the screen a second before the close was never the same after, out by a long way at times.

Can anybody suggest a software, not reliant on the API close that can display the % difference between a nominated, (let's say Unibet) bookie site's Fixed price and the Betfair Back price? There are sites around that display, on one page, all prices live but you can't nominate two as a % comparison.